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Jim's Response to Kenoli (in bold blue):


re ilinc


I wish these companies would just tell what these things do rather than offer a sales pitch that includes lots of buzzwords. They all do that; I can't stand it either. Even some of the “demos” are just hype. . Here is a testimonial:


“iLinc provides strong interaction and presentation
features...The product’s strengths include many
UI customization options, the ability to import all
content types natively that run on Windows, and a
flat license model that offers pricing simplicity for
enterprise Web conferencing.”


that makes me nervous. What does UI mean Not sure, “universal interface”? and when I hear it is compatible with everything that runs on Windows red flags go up because of Microsoft's ubiquitous commitment to refuse to comply with web standards. MS always tries to drive the “standard” their way. However, I read articles which tells me they are opening up some. The litigation in EU has helped on that score. Aside from that, all the features it touts are pretty much in conflict about what WC is all about, namely describing one to many meetings with mechanical feedback and polling. I disagree with your characterization. The “features” are ours for using or not and someday we might want them. I see no conflict at this point. There is a lot of stuff about uploading various kinds of media which aren't of much use to us. That's your opinion, not mine. I've tried to upload PowerPoints to Google Documents with no success. Email rejects large PP files. The hope is that the the Virtual Cafe software will allow for uploading of PP presentations. I really need that service to do my presentations. I don't want the software shaping what we do. I want us to shape what we do. The point of our design team is to find the best fit, not the perfect fit. At this point Live Meeting, iLink for Meeting and possible Oovoo, might be good fits. We will not really know until we use each of them a few times. It's too early to badger the software.


I'll see if I can find time to log in during one of their demos, though I wish they would just provide a list of what it does. Me too. Good hunting.


re MS Live Meeting


So, I'm a bit confused by the description at the link you sent. It doesn't get far enough into the details to know exactly what is possible. It's pretty much a sales pitch like the ilinc pitch. True, yet it's better than nothing. We need to get to use some trial software, not demo software. The demos all explain how to do this on Windows and discuss a live meeting client the only description of which they give is about how to install it on Windows. It also talks a lot about integrating it with Outlook Express, which for me doesn't' help much since Outlook doesn't run on Mac or Unix. True. I would really like to have all software open sourced. Alas, we are not there yet, but we can continue looking afresh as the open source software gets better.


Is this a service, as most Microsoft products are, that make it difficult to use if you are not on a windows platform and using Windows software? Does it work with Mac and Unix/Linux based systems? Good question; don't know for sure. My bet is that if it works on IE and Firefox, it will work on any MAC browser.


I generally try avoid Microsoft products as they seem to create more problems than they solve, but I can't tell from the demos exactly how this works. Yes, visiblity is not clear.


I'm still not sure what we are shooting for here. Amy's list and my responses are very specific. Thus far, we have had no negative feedback, so I assume all is OK with Amy's and my workproduct. See: Topic #2 at: http://worldcybercafe.wetpaint.com/page/Brainstorming


If we had a target in terms of format, we could even think about how we could put various pieces together. If we were trying to reproduce the format we use in face-to-face WC, we could create a simple program (or person) that scrambls emails and sends everyone 4 emails. Each group of four could then exchange emails to each other until the program scrambled the emails into new sets of 4 and then exchange emails with that group. As compared to the conferencing capability I've seen with even the simplest systems, email is dead except for an inviting folks to the meeting (e.g. Meeting Wizard). After a few "table" rotations, the program could send out a master email that sent emails to everyone at all tables and we could have a large group discussion. If we wanted to use graphic facilitation, a few people could be siting in front of a graphics program, or even a sheet of paper they later photograph and send people and recording what comes through on the emails. They wouldn't even need to do this in real time. The real point of having a Virtual Cafe which is synchronous, is that every thing is done in real time or, if a large file, such as a video clip, is loaded on the host server ahead of time for instant reply. Emails are way too slow, cumbersome, and fail on the graphics side.


I realize that there are problems with this, like concurrently sent messages, but I think this could be worked out (I don't think it would be a problem with the groups of four - they could even use an agreed on rotation - but it could get sticky in the large group discussion). If we had a F2F cafe augmented with Virtual Cafe of, say 100 folks, the email system would really bog us down. Take a look at how Bioneers can have the main session in one location and many satellite locations involving thousands of viewers. I'm just thinking about how much time gets taken up trying to makes something someone else invented for another purpose work for us. We are not talking about a custom fit. The software is already there, up and running. Maybe we could just do something ourselves. Not practical when some of the really good programs are free or affordable, like iLink for Meetings and Oovoo. I don't think it would even take too much scripting to write something ourselves in, say php/mysql. It wouldn't require a huge amount of programming as it would be pretty much a single purpose script. Have at it if you have the time and talent.


I haven't looked into Google (and other places like Yahoo) as much as I should, but there are a lot of web services that provide interfaces so users can customize the front end using SOAP or other web service technologies. True, there are many video conferencing services which I have googled. They are all looking for large corporate customers as to whom they can charge about one-half of the otherwise travel costs. That's not our interest and their services are pricey.


That said, if we want to go with something out of the box, maybe we should just be arbitrary and see if it works. That is kind of my recommendation. We need to get two, maybe three finalists, then spend a month or two trying them out, making notes and exchanging ideas and comments. Then we could try something else. Eventually, we would learn something from our conversations and from our attempts to use the technology. My preference is to run up the learning curve by digging into the guts of each program, down almost to the level of code, then try to bollox-up the system, just to see how it reacts – the boot camp approach.


I don't think it is going to be easy to make a judgment up front. Agreed.


My one criteria is that it not be something that is dependent on Windows or any other Microsoft technology. Everything about Microsoft is locking people more and more into their hegemonic empire.


Has anyone looked around in the open source arena? How about these community interfaces like Drupal? Yes, I take the weekly newsletter and use that system administered by a techie. No one I know can handle the technical side of Drupal unless they are already supported by paying clients on that software platform. I like your idea of getting into open source. First, we need to get the show on the road with “close enough” software, then see how we can migrate to open source. Thanks for your comments.
Jim


--Kenoli




On Jul 18, 2008, at 11:56 AM, jimmiller5417 wrote:

Email jimmiller5417 about this message directly.

View DEMO of Live Meeting

It is good to have some basis of comparison when voting on a subject, such as whether to choose iLink for Meetings. The next best conferencing system I've found so far is MS Live Meeting. Please take a look at the series of Demos beginning at: http://office.microsoft.com/home/video.aspx?assetid=ES102403191033&width=884&height=540&startindex=0&CTT=11&Origin=HA102403231033.

The series of DEMOS are listed at: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/livemeeting/HA102403231033.aspx?pid=CL100608181033

Jim

TOPIC: HORIZONTAL EDUCATION

jimmiller5417 - 1 min ago - Jul 15, 2008 7:38 pm (#108 Total: 108)

Community collaboration is an interesting topic which deserves discussion.

Replying to: Charles Savage (Jul 8, 2008 10:45 am) Virtual Cafes?: Amy, Jim, Tracy and the others who may be interested, Let’s find a date in August that works... Content for the August Virtual Cafe We need some content for the Virtual Cafe meeting in August. We are all capable of talking about the technology and what works and how, and that ought to be part of our discussions. However, the real value of a Virtual Cafe is taking a subject (perhaps one new to us) and exploring it in some depth just to see if we can do such exploration and accomplish some result. I propose the subject of our first meeting be: HORIZONTAL EDUCATION. Charles, take no offense, but the typical vertical education we have all had (talking head, read the text, memorize, spit it back on the test), leaves me with a headache. There is another way, horizontal education, that is one group of folks teaching a different group of folks. The best example I've seen of this force in action is Campesino a Campesino: Voices from Latin America's Farmer to Farmer Movement for Sustainable Agriculture at: http://www.foodfirst.org/store/book/Campesino_a_Campesino. Please read the article and be prepared to discuss it. One point is to come up with some good applications of horizontal education which can be applied in the Cafe setting (virtual or F2F). Whatdahyathink? Jim

/===================================/

Brainstorming Topic #1: Which objectives are there for the World Cyber Cafe which are reasonably obtainable in the short term?

Jim's added comments to a thread at TWC, where Amy is the Administrator:

To: Amy Lenzo:

Amy's text is in black. Jim's comments are in blue. Please feel free to edit. Credits go to Amy for drilling down further into the fundamentals of a cafe setting and operation. See Amy's website: http://www.beautydialogues.com

"What are the meaningful results we are looking for?"

1) Each participant feeling personally heard and part of something important.

a) At the first opportunity, we send out a personal invitation to each person who has indicated an interest in attending a World Cyber Cafe event. We need to mention that their interest or point of view is need for the event and would be welcomed.

b) Before the event, the presenters post their notes or text of talk with citations where appropriate. As these are posted, an RRS feed notifies all who have registered for the event and suggests they forward our message to five friends who might be interested and sending a CC to the facilitator/moderator of the event (or to the WCC admin.)

2) An opening in participants' ability to really listen to others. We might introduce the idea of a talking stick. A Chat room takes care of talking over. In a conference call, normal pauses and a dropped voice usually signals that the speaker has relinquished the “floor”. Or we could devise a verbal signal, “over” as in the HAM radio days.

4) Collective/shared awareness arising from the whole group interaction. In a conference call, we could start out with a song such as a Mitch Miller sing-a-long “duck” song. Or we could have performers sing the melody and the rest of use supply the Doo Wop. Rhythmic clapping? Singing in the Rain? Over the Rainbow? Oklahoma?

"What are the group dynamics behind World Cafe that gets the results we value?"

1) unusual, beautiful, welcoming/inviting environment. Sayings from Starhawk or others might be a good intro. New age visuals or some powerful Mexican murals might appeal to the crowd.

2) personal welcome. Yes! The Moderator should have a “Welcome” package which each participant gets downloaded when they actually sign in to the live conference. How about a door prize? Contests? Free software?


3) shared introduction encompassing the whole room. Before the meeting, each registrant for the meeting has the opportunity to add a profile to the Membership page. The Greeting should mention this fact so that any member can review the attendees' profiles a few days in advance.

4) visual graphics for welcome, guidelines, and the question/s (as they evolve) for reference throughout. Visuals are best uploaded to a server ahead of time, and then added to the Event's WikiWebsite for all to see. These can be combined into a Power Point show with or without text and with or without sound.

5) being in small groups of no more than 4-5 Depending the total number attending, the smallest “table” or “room” should be five and the largest eight.

6) participating in a collaborative, collective visual "doodle" while speaking. Probably a white board: one for the entire event and one for each table. Hopefully this allows for concurrent users – not sure of this.


7) hearing "the buzz" and snatches of conversation around us as we speak and listen in our small group. Each participate will have the ability to shift from one “page”, “table” or “room” at will. It would be too difficult and confusing to have background noise or “buzz”.

8) rotating the small groups for at least 2 rounds of conversation. Good. The scrivener should stay at h/h first assigned table, take notes and summarize the prior discussion/votes to the new attendees.

9) the chance to harvest what we've heard in our conversations and listen to others' perceptions . Yes, the scrivener does this or we can use the transcript from the Chat Room for exact replication of the text'd discussions.

10) The ability for everyone to see our shared thinking represented visually at the same time. As to the entire event, probably we need a talking head to summarize each table's discussions or we could put the camcorder on each scrivener to summarize h/h table's conclusions.

"How might we implement these dynamics online?"

In relation to
#1: personal invitations, clear directions, welcoming visual design, easy to use interface, friendly tech support, freely offered and available throughout. Excellent. Not sure how we are going to staff the tech support. I'll do my part but we will need 10% of the number of participants doing tech support before the meeting and two people during the meeting.

#2: visual video access to all the people in the room, special care taken among the hosting team to be thoughtful and personable in compensation for the emotional "gap" caused by the relative lack of expressiveness in the online environment. At the table level, each participant has a webcam clipped to the h/h monitor, aimed at the participant. If we have a combination of physical tables in a physical cafe with Cyber participants online, then MS has a solution for the table: MS LiveMeeting has a 360 degree camcorder which sits in the middle of the table and records motion video and audio. The drawback is that this device costs $3,000. See this in one of the demos listed on the EVALUATION MATRIX of WCC. This digital data stream can be recording.

#3: a way for the whole group to be in one place, and hear a shared presentation, a host that's comfortable in the online medium and familiar with the technology being used. While we need a talking head to start the event, we should quickly break into sessions for a hour or two, then come back to the talking head.

#4: participant & hosts having access to a shared visual screen that can change throughout the café process. We can put small thumbnail squares on the display screen, with each square displaying each of several tables, which are clickable. I'm not techie enough to know how to do it, but I've seen it done.

#5: a way for the group to divide into small, contained groups of 4-5 that they can have private conversation within, and yet retain visual and auditory connection with the whole group. GoToMeeting, iLink for meeting does this as does MS LiveMeeting.

#6: shared equal-access whiteboard for each small group. Good idea. I'm not, at this point, techie enough to know how to do this, but I'll looking into it.

#7: Feedback. We should have a survey questionnaire up and running during the event so that as it progresses, each registrant can “fill in the blanks” or check off or add an essay. At the end of the Event, these are uploaded via the Admin to the WCC website.

#8 a way for new small groups to be easily formed Self-chosen by Topic on a first-come, first-serve basis.

#9: the same as #3

#10: same as #4, with a real-time component and the addition of a graphic recorder who is comfortable in the online medium, and skilled in using the technology of online real-time graphics capture. Since WCC is totally digital, no problem in creating galleries of pictures and playlists of video and audio. If we have a combo physical cafe and a virtual cafe, then there will need to have a computer and a scanner at a back-room physical table for non-digitized visuals, or we could use a ditigal camera, take a picture of the analogue visual and upload the digital image.

#11. Gear. To promote the WCC in live video/audio, each registrant will have to invest in some software, a set of head phones with a mic and a Web cam. Theses are cheap enough so that the cost should not be a barrier. (A whole lot cheaper than driving to a physical event). Visuals are important so we need to encourage each registrant to get a scanner and some scanning software so they can hand draw a visual or use a non-digitized photo and still have the ability to upload.

#12 Freedom of choice. I have been to conferences, only to find out that they are not what I expected – vague words, no action plan, a re-hash, stream of phrases, a marketing pitch. The value of WCC is that the registrant can simply drop the connection and go about h/h business instantly.

Regards,

Jim Miller